Anti-war protesters accuse cops of lying

Some officials at council meeting try to reach out
By PERRY SWANSON, THE GAZETTE

May 10, 2007 - 12:28AM


Anti-war protesters Tuesday denounced the police version of arrests at a St. Patrick’s Day parade, saying there is little hope for an improved relationship with law officers. 

In often emotional testimony before the Colorado Springs City Council, protesters accused police of brutality in removing them from the parade and lying in an investigation of the incident. 

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“It’s going to be very hard to cooperate with people that lie about us and have such a history,” said Tony Abdo, a member of the Pikes Peak Justice and Peace Commission. 

Members of the group were among the anti-war demonstrators in the March 17 parade. Abdo was among about a dozen activists who addressed the council Tuesday, heightening a dispute over law enforcement tactics that has lasted nearly two months. 

Police say they removed the protesters from the Tejon Street parade route at the direction of parade organizers, who said the anti-war message violated the private event’s rules. Officers arrested seven people, all now facing obstruction charges in Municipal Court. 

Police and protesters disagree on what happened when police removed them from the parade. 

Some protesters are accused of sitting in the street, blocking the parade. They were forcibly removed by police. The protesters say police used excessive force, including dragging one, Elizabeth Fineron, who suffered a bruise on her hip. Police have denied doing anything approaching brutality. 

The criticism of police tactics continued Tuesday after Police Chief Richard Myers reiterated his pledge to review department policy for handling crowds and civil disobedience. 

Myers said an investigation found no policy violations among officers, but he admitted the situation could have been better handled. He said “we deeply regret that this happened,” and he promised more talks with anti-war protesters to prevent conflicts. 

“Dialogue has already begun between the department and the Pikes Peak Justice and Peace Commission, and I think nothing but good can come from that,” Myers said. 

Mayor Lionel Rivera, while disagreeing with some protesters’ version of events, promised protesters the city is committed to protecting their free speech rights and will consider policies to deter conflicts with police. 

Some City Council members also reached out to the protesters. 

“I do apologize to you for any harm you may have suffered from this, either physically or mentally,” Vice Mayor Larry Small said. 

Despite the assurances, protest organizer Eric Verlo said he doesn’t think the outcome will be better relations with police. 

Verlo owns The Bookman, a business entered to march in the parade. Police said Verlo helped set off the incident by failing to tell parade organizers his entry would involve an antiwar protest. 

“I don’t think that’s dishonest, I think you’re just quibbling,” Verlo told the council and police. “You disagree with what I have to say.” 

Verlo said he hopes police will discuss their tactics during another public meeting. That’s an idea proposed by John Weiss, publisher of the Colorado Springs Independent newspaper. A few council members said they would attend. 

“I’d like the police to reassure the Colorado Springs population that people resisting nonviolently, they are not going to be brutalized,” Verlo said. 

Another protester, Mark Lewis, said he doubts police will agree to do anything more than “revisit the policy.” He accused police of protecting each other. 

“I don’t expect anything with the blue wall of silence in this place,” he said. 

TIMELINE HOW IT HAPPENED 

MARCH 17: At the direction of St. Patrick’s Day parade organizers, police tell anti-war protesters to leave and arrest seven who police said refused. 

“We asked them to move from the parade route, they refused and we escorted (them) off.” — Police Sgt. Bob Weber 

APRIL 10: Seven protesters are arraigned and choose to go to trial. 

“Let the system do what it wants with me.” — protester Peter Sprunger-Froese 

MAY 2: City officials and the Pikes Peak Justice and Peace Commission meet privately to discuss the arrests. 

“We feel like some of our people were roughly treated. The police feel they were surprised. . . . Things spun out of control.” — The Rev. Jim White, acting director of the commission 

MONDAY: Police Chief Richard Myers reports to the City Council, citing protesters and parade organizers for precipitating the conflict but promising a review of department policy. 

“I deeply regret that this incident happened.” — Myers 

TUESDAY: At another City Council meeting, war protesters reject the police version of events; council members promise more communication on future events. 

“It’s not up to the community to find a way to work with the police, it’s up to the police to demonstrate to the community that they’re sincere.” — Tony Abdo, member of the commission


TG, It comes down to a couple of things, actually. First, you are NOT on the tractor where you said you were and didn't see what you say which wouldnt rebut 168 photos and videos. If I were going to desing a media publicity stunt this sure wouldnt be it. This has not played well for us at all and violence is the last thing we want. You violence lovers that cheer for elderly ladies being harmed have benefitted, not us. I have no sword to lay down, and the pen being mightier than the sword, I will continue to use that tool until there is peace.

CSACTIONorg - May 21, 2007 07:13:18 PM
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Heaintagonnadoit, TG. It aint in 'im.

lmao - May 16, 2007 03:13:41 PM
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Again, It all comes down to The protestors, no matter WHAT they were protesting for, were in the wrong. Although I dont think they are all to upset about it as they got what they wanted, they got media attention, even though it is going the wrong way for them, they THINK they got people to understand and listen to there cause, but all they seemed to get is people siding with the police on this issue, because they had to PROVOKE. So ONCE again CSACTION PERSON I say lay down your sword and admit, your protestors screwed up.

Tractor Gurlie - May 16, 2007 12:55:26 PM
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And again all my posts are gone. What are you afraid of? The truth? Fair debate? You should be. You debate like a child!

CSACTIONorg - May 15, 2007 10:45:52 PM
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Outside I see nothing in my posts to lead you to think I dont like police. Actually I admire police but I know thats not an opinion shared by every peace activist. I think its just natural to admire someone who would do a job I wouldnt. Face danger I wouldnt. Make sacrifices I wouldnt. Very few of us are qualified and I know Im not. The entire CSPD department is not to blame for this. 14 responded to the disturbance and only 3 or 4 were nasty about it. One gave us all bottled water and one gave one of our crying children a teddy bear. Im proud of their stellar service to our city. The rogue element that embaarrasses every department is hard to control. Chief Myers has inherited a culture left by Velez and Kramer that were trained by Darryl Gates in the LAPD. He has my sympathy and my support and I remian optimistic.

CSACTIONorg - May 15, 2007 10:08:30 PM
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Outside its a fair question. IMHO Elizabeth was pulled off her feet by accident. Careless and insensitive but an accident. I dont think they knew that walking that fast and then one of them turning to the left and pulling her arm to the side and then behind would pull her off her feet. Its not the worst brutality police have been accused or found guilty of but the brutality comes in when she falls and they do not help her up and across the street like every boy scout would. Picking Frank up by his neck and applying a choke hold and pain pressure point was not the minimum force needed. Grabbing Molly around the throat was not minimum force. Breaking signs was not. Arm twists were not needed. The taser "dry firing" at Genie and me was not needed. The chief thinks that the term brutality is too much and there are those in the activist community that agree it's a term reserved for more brutal treatment like clubbing and beating. Im not suggesting that it is on the level with those well known brutality cases like Rodney King. But for people that lead pacifist lives of complete nonviolence, what happened was a brutal assault that no one should have to endure or witness in a happy occasion like that parade. Its a miracle Elizabth didnt break her hip with that fall.

CSACTIONorg - May 15, 2007 09:54:40 PM
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I read through all of the postings and have come up with a conclusion that the CSACTIONorg doesn't really know what they stand for except that they don't like the police. I am betting that somewhere they have filed a lawsuit and are seeking money. It always comes back to money even if you say you believe in something.

Outsidelookingin - May 15, 2007 09:44:04 PM
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I also understand that the older lady was cussing up a storm and trying to provoke a fight with the officers. SO again, if she picks the fight why are the police at fault. Seems to me that she was interfering with their official duties. Again, her fault.

outsidelooking in - May 15, 2007 09:36:40 PM
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Just a Thought, I watched the video and I am not sure why this is being called police brutality. The older gal was the one that fell down, So, why are the officers being blamed for hurting her.

outsidelookingin - May 15, 2007 09:31:59 PM
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Well I agree with you on that point CSACTION. No post should be deleted unless it is hateful or obscene.

Maxx - May 15, 2007 09:30:47 PM
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You realize by deleting all my posts you are conceding the loss of the debate. What are you afraid of?

CSACTIONorg - May 15, 2007 09:23:45 PM
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Danny it's pacifism not passivism. Nonviolent but not passive. Activist. The constitution deserves our undying action. Enough silly semantics. I wont wade into all the rest of this illogical nonsense but one point. We did "just hold our signs and march along the parade" and thought we were "guaranteed that the police would not come and ask us to leave" since they didnt the year before. We were warmly received in 2006 and are the majority opinion today as then. They wouldnt have removed us this year except for the parade official who told the organizer a lie about the wording of a sign. The same kind of person that deleted my last three posts here. He does not believe in the constitutional right to disagree. Cant debate on the merits of the facts so tries to censor those that have another conclusion. Yes nazis and other fascists kill the pacifists and intellectuals first. Violent people find nonviolence a threat. Violent people find peace a threat. Violent people know no other recourse but violent language and actions. BTW no one was charged with resisting arrest because pacifists dont resist arrest.

CSACTIONorg - May 15, 2007 08:55:55 PM
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Maxx, I'm with you on that. Actually, if I were going to protest a war, I'd march to the capital or something of that nature, do something peaceful that would actually get the attention of the important people and discuss it with them. There's something to be said about writing our congressmen. Even so, it's amazing how quickly we forgot about September 11, isn't it? In my opinion, that's what started the war.

Lexi - May 15, 2007 07:42:30 PM
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criminy, pacifists, oppose war, but CSactionOrg tries to create their own war by agressively resisting arrest, by agressively protesting. I guarentee if they would have just held their signs and marched along in the parade, they would not have had the police come in and ask them to leave. You criminy and CSaction are aggressors not pasifists. here is the definition criminy gave me. "opposition to war or violence of any kind". If elizabeth was against violence of any kind why did she assult the officer? Yes I said assult, everyone knows not to even come close to touching an officer. She is yelling at him begging him to arrest her, then and only then was she escorted off the street. Like almost everyone here has stated, if she would have just did what the officer told her, none of this would have happened.

Danny - May 15, 2007 07:33:06 PM
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I have seen it Lexi, but thanks for the tip, I'll go check it out online. And I have been to Dachau concentration camp where many pacifists, along with jews homosexuals and anyone else the nazis hated were put to death. I fail to see these pacifists' motivation other than attention getting to the nth degree. They have no idea what they are being protected against. Again they sicken me. Although after seeing old liz, MAYBE burkas for some aren't such a bad idea!

Maxx - May 15, 2007 07:19:18 PM
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Maxx, that's an interesting statement. Have you seen the series, "Why We Fight"? It was a documentary put together during WW2, it basically tells a little bit of what you just did. You can watch it online free at Classic Cinema Online if you access the documentary page.

Lexi - May 15, 2007 07:03:34 PM
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Whenever any dictatorial regime takes over they ALWAYS kill the pacifists first. Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, they all did it. And the Islamists we are fighting would kill every one of you activist pacifists if they could. We are fighting for western civilization and you all are having tantrums in the street, sickening.

Maxx - May 15, 2007 06:56:51 PM
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Criminy, there's such a thing as passive aggression, it's still aggressive. And, when you say paccivism, do you mean pacifism? Do you truly know what pacifism is? Put it this way, why do you suppose that plug parents give their kid is called a pacifier? It's to shut them up. Pacifists want to shut people up by giving them what they want to pacify the situation, the idea being to give them what they want and they'll shut up and won't bother you. Certainly the protesters at the parade do not meet this definition, they are not pacifists at all. Rather, what these activists want is for the rest of the city to pacify them, and when that didn't happen they tantrumed like a bunch of two year olds. I happen to have a two year old, and she likes her pacifier. When she doesn't get it, she falls apart at the seams, and will even throw herself down on the floor and kick and wail about if I try to pick her up, throwing her weight downward as she's picked up which often causes her to fall back to the floor. What these activists did was exactly the same thing my toddler does when she doesn't get her pacifier. These activists wanted their pacifier, and they were going to kick and scream and hollar and make noise and act as defiant as they could until they got it. When they didn't get it, the police, like a bunch of mama's and dada's had to pull the toddler like group out of the street. I still think they should have just let them get run over by the parade instead, it would have served them right. So, to sum it all up, they weren't being passive, they weren't being pacifist, they were being violent and aggressive, expecting everyone else to pacify them, they weren't about to pacify anyone else. Pacifists want to pacify others, activists want others to pacify them. See the difference?

Lexi - May 15, 2007 04:52:42 PM
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How is it that right-wing folks are so liberal with their word interpretations? Aggression, in the defintion of paccivism is physical aggression and violence. What will you say next? Her bright green shirt and shorts with those huge white legs was clearly a violent and deviant act? Talk about over dramatization! Come on folks, think with your minds! Flipping the bird is actually a misdeamer, but in this country, it really doesn't justify a neighborhood war. Poking a police officer who has just violently pushed you to the ground could be interpreted as self defense. Wait, her poking is violent but the police officer wasn't? And since he was fist, we call that the aggressor and the defender. Talk about twisting words Danny, you really take the cake on that one. Lexi, you take second.

criminy - May 15, 2007 04:22:52 PM
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Hey, Danny, don't forget about how Old Liz was yelling expletives at the top of her lungs at the cops. That's also considered a form of violent aggression, believe it or not, falling in the violent category. And whether her poke was a poke a light tap, or even a less than light tap, that was an act of aggression towards a police officer, which falls in the category of assaulting a police officer. Even just yelling profanities at him was assault. These people claim they were being passive? No they weren't, they weren't even passive aggressive, they were just downright aggressive and rude. And look at the example they set for the little kids, that this is how adults act in public. Boy, that sure makes the kids feel safe and secure, doesn't it? Knowing that no matter where they go, the adults act younger than them?

Lexi - May 15, 2007 04:00:45 PM
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Criminy, are you pulling my leg? I know what the difference is, one word is derived from the other. CSaction is using pasivist and activist interchangably and saying they don't resort to violence, but violence is a result of their pasivism. I am simply pointing out that Ms. Elizabeth was seeking violence by begging to be arrested and by poking a police officer, so you see they seek out violence. Again, criminy I hope you are joking again.

Danny - May 15, 2007 03:50:40 PM
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Pacifist - a person who believes in pacifism or is opposed to war or to violence of any kind. Paccivism - passive character, attitude, quality, or behavior. Clearly, the two mean different things. Come on, Danny.

criminy - May 15, 2007 03:44:38 PM
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Danny - you've been pwned.

criminy - May 15, 2007 02:38:34 PM
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Danny Danny Danny. If Pacifism were the same a passivism it would be spelled the same. "No conlfict" means there is no conflict between pacifism and activistm. Pacifist activists are always nonviolent in conflicts. All pacifists are not activists and certainly all activists are not pacifists. I have no time for semantic ratholes.

CSACTIONorg - May 15, 2007 02:24:16 PM
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Danny Danny Danny. If pacifist were the same as passivist they would be spelled the same. The phrase "no conflict" means there is no conflict between pacifism and activism. That any conflict a pacifist participates in will be nonviolent. No time for semantic ratholes. Back to the facts. Elizabeth asked 4 cops to arrest her so she could be in the system of due process. The chief was told and used the terms in council "punched" and "struck". The 2 police reports say "lightly touched". This is not my opinion. This is their two police reports.

CSACTIONorg - May 15, 2007 01:08:37 PM
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CSaction, you contradict yourself again, "Pacifists are activists. No conflict. Pacifists get things done nonviolently through activism." No conflict? Elizabeth confronted a police officer and begged him to arrest her. When he didn't she poked him in the shoulder. Oh but in your definition of "no conflict" she didn't provoke the arrest. Twisting the truth is still a lie. I hate to see how your own children who participated in your protest define what a truth or lie is.

Danny - May 15, 2007 12:23:59 PM
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Tractor person I'm not asking you or anyone to believe what I say. That would just be my opinion. My opinions are based only on evidence and empirical fact but still just my opinion. I submit photos and videos for you to see and decide. Thats the difference between me and these blogger kids. Not interested in a 1936 tractor. Have two photos of a green tractor. No one there. Photos not manipulated. etc. etc. etc. Have accused you of nothing. Never used the word lie or liar. Ill do you a favor and post the 2 photos I have. Could be any green tractor as far as I know. Sounds like what you described. Danny you are mistaking pacifism with inactivism. Two different things. Pacifists are activists. No conflict. Pacifists get things done nonviolently through activism. The nonviolent pacifism and message of peace stimulates massive violent reactions and verbal assaults especially in this town.

CSACTIONorg - May 15, 2007 12:07:56 PM
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There is a new article on this and CSaction is saying they are "peace pacivists" now. Funny I don't think a passivist would provoke a police officer to arrest them as this poor defenseless old woman did. LOL

Danny - May 15, 2007 11:26:20 AM
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CSACTION-I find it very hard to believe anything you have to say. You said before in ALL your pictures and videos you had not ONE picture of a tractor and accused me of lieing about being near or in the parade, now that I basically have given proof you suddenly have a picture of a tractor BUT no one is sitting on it. Keep in mind IF you do have a pic of the a tractor there were 2 you may have the cherry picker and not the the 1936 A. If you dont know tractors LOOK them up and you can see the difference. Next you will have a picture of BOTH tractors and there was either still no one on them or there was a man or maybe someother made up person. Good try though. I know what I saw and what I heard and nothing you can say or fabricate will change it. Sorry but its time you face the truth. Your people were wrong and the police did was necessary to clear the parade route of there disruption.

Tractor Gurlie - May 15, 2007 10:45:28 AM
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What they're proving wrong is you, CSanction. I agree with Danny, you're a liar, and your own website, along with Old Liz's behavior at the parade and at other events of the past proves it. Old Liz did the toddler thing, deliberately throwing herself on the ground and goading the cops to arrest her. What innocent little old lady who can barely walk acts like that?

Lexi - May 15, 2007 08:07:27 AM
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CSaction, her day in court is not to refute the so called police brutality, it is to defend herself in being charged with a crime. It has been stated before, if she wants her day in court for the brutality, she will have to sue the police department. She broke the law and that is why she will be going to court!

Danny - May 15, 2007 07:56:51 AM
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Proven wrong? The photo and videos cannot be proven wrong. Reality cannot be proven wrong. I simply direct you to the photos and videos. Conspiracy theories of photo manipulations are a cop out. Pun intended. Photos and videos are proof. Opinions are not. Facts dont have brands. Reality doesnt take sides.

CSACTIONorg - May 15, 2007 07:51:50 AM
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We're not interested in your brand of facts, they've already been proven wrong.

rolling eyes - May 14, 2007 11:12:15 PM
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I realize youre not really interested in the facts but Elizabeth was dragged across the street when she asked for name and badge number. The quote lightly tapped endquote on the cops shoulder was several minutes later and that quote is from two police reports. This gives her due process in which she gets her day in court to make her case on the brutality visited upon her. Otherwise the brutal punishment stands and she has no recourse but to file a complaint, which needs a court case to back it up. I guess you would like to live in a world where the police just hurt you and leave you in the gutter without any due process. No conviction. No jury of your peers. No right to face your accuser. I don't. She doesn't. The founding fathers didn't and people like us are reason you dont have to.

CSACTIONorg - May 14, 2007 10:47:13 PM
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It appears the canned charade is falling apart.

Maxx - May 14, 2007 09:19:53 PM
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Talk about questioning people's motives, Loring, lookie what I found "Space-watcher Loring Wirbil -- email address edited out -- notes that the Vortex program has shifted from military spying to 'broadband interception of civilian communications' as part of the US Space Command’s 'Long-Range Plan for 2020, which explicitly calls for US domination of the planet. . .' "

underyourcovers, pi - May 14, 2007 08:01:44 PM
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Oh, and one more thing, the minimum to get arrested was actually her refusal to leave the street when told. I don't know why the Cop told her she'd have to assault him, maybe he was trying to just get her out of the street, not realizing she'd actually assault him. Her alleged tap was still an assault, because she had malicious intent.

Lexi again - May 14, 2007 06:13:36 PM
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Tell me something, CSanction, if Elizabeth is such a poor little old lady who is so innocent, how would she know such activist tactics as you've described in merely "tapping" a cop on the shoulder three times to "get her day in court" so she could have legal recourse? Recourse for what? Being asked to leave the parade? She could have had her day in court by filing a lawsuit against the owner of the parade. Of course, it would have a better chance of being successful had she not lost her manners.

Lexi - May 14, 2007 06:10:04 PM
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By the way, Loring, tell me, what's your affiliation with Oregon Peace Works?

Lexi - May 14, 2007 06:05:36 PM
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My over broad questioning of people's motives? Excuse me, but I'm not questioning anything, I'm stating a fact. A little bit of research, and it didn't take much, shows that not only does Old Liz have a record, but the activism tactics that are being taught really do exist. I know you're trying to downplay this matter and minimize it by trying to use a little bit of psychology in your post, but I think that most of us can see right through that.

Lexi - May 14, 2007 05:57:17 PM
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CSaction, if your friend shot the video from 5/30 news, then why do you have a copy of a copy of a copy on your web site? Let me explain, if 5/30 had "exclusive" rights, and sold it to channel 11, then it is aired on utube and you have utube on your web site. Talk about misinformation.

Danny - May 14, 2007 05:53:21 PM
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Loring Wirbel, My appologies to you sir and thank you for the compliment. CSaction if not for misinformation there would be no information? You got that right, the only misinformation is yours. The police did not drag her accross the street until after they arrested her. The "assult" came before she fell to the ground and before the dragging. If she would have done what was asked of her none of the "brutality" would have happened. If she would have left the area, and if she would not have lightly tapped the officer in the shoulder, she would not have been escorted away from blocking the street. If she wouldn't have been escorted, she wouldn't have tripped over her own feeble legs and she wouldn't have fell. You sir have even stated that it was probably an accident that she fell. And your comment that you had to do some editing of video before you put it on your web page just proves you edit out what you don't want others to see. Again I say LIAR!

Danny - May 14, 2007 05:49:09 PM
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If it werent for misinformation you wouldnt have any infomation at all. Elizabeth was dragged across ths street after they pulled her over as the video shows. Knowing she would have no recourse for the police brutality she then asked 4 cops what it would take to get arrested. When one told her she would have to assault an officer she tapped one on the shoulder 3 times. Two cops report in their official police reports that she quoting lightly tapped them end quoting on the shoulder. Not assault, but the minimum to get arrested and have her due process. Without a court case she would have no recourse. Thats the point of the light tap. Thanx for all the opportunities to explain what has been so misrepresented here.

CSACTIONorg - May 14, 2007 04:37:33 PM
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Danny, forgive me for not being clear, I was complimenting you for being specific in critiquing CSAction's strategies and tactics, and comparing that with what I thought was Lexi's over-broad questioning of people's overall motivations. I think you brought up many good points.

Loring Wirbel - May 14, 2007 04:36:27 PM
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Oh one other thing, why is it you don't hear about that poor old lady asking what it would take to get her arrested? HMM? She asked what it would take and the officer said you would have to assult me. then she did, and she was arrested, and when she was arrested, she dropped to the ground and claimed the officers "dragged" her down. I have refrained from name calling but it is called for here. LIARS!

Danny - May 14, 2007 02:34:23 PM
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CSactionORG, you state you had a friend from 5-30 shoot the video but yet you have the 11 news video on your site. If you were being truthful you would be using the 5-30 video and not the other. Loring, why are you accusing me of something Lexi posted? Me thinks me smelleth something rotten.

Danny - May 14, 2007 02:31:44 PM
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empirical evidence? I notice you didn't defend yourself against the questionable angles remark. We know a lie when we see one, you're not fooling anyone here, nor will you, so why are you continuing to waste your time?

fcol - May 14, 2007 08:52:21 AM
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oh stop no Photoshop manipulations were applied to these photos other than contrast, color saturation, unsharp masking, and cropping. The angle of a photo might hide something else that is happening, but does not create something that is not happening. That is obvious. Again you argue that we are not seeing what we are seeing. A pathetic debate tactic akin your Mobius logic path that I need evidence to back up my point, when I am the only person here providing any empirical evidence. No wonder you come to the wrong conclusion on this an other issues. I don't call it an activist tactic to provide empirical evidence to back up a debate point, but the most fundamental tool to apply if you want objective credibility.

CSactionORG - May 14, 2007 06:03:10 AM
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May I suggest professional help? You people have some serious issues.

Dr. Z - May 14, 2007 05:31:20 AM
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PS - another common activist tactic is attacking the people who prove you wrong. As case in point, I direct you to your post to Lexi, where you stated, " Lexi I would assume you would welcome the help in proving youre right since you cant do it yourself.", followed by this attempt to manipulate, "Your definition of proof is strange one, because it involves no evidence, photos, video, empiracisim. " You then go on to demand, as you've done before, that Lexi "provide evidence". Well, perhaps you don't understand, but the evidence she's providing in addition to the web articles about activism training, are the very pictures on your website. Y